[personal profile] nicosian
R tells me he doesn't think women exactly assume their blind date will rape them and leave them in an alley.

I said probably not, but the fear is there, not because every guy does this, but because a lot of guys do act as if sex is theirs for demand, after a meal, or a movie. Setting aside every loopy girl I know in HS who used sex to manipulate guys, the power is still in their favor.

Guys are told to get the girl, get the pussy, be a man. Girls are told not to make a scene, don't challenge the guy, don't make more than them, don't outshine them, don't give them sex because then you're a slutty slut.

When I left an abusive boyfriend, welfare asked if I was sure I just couldn't reconcile, and save them the paperwork. All the checks, even for me, came in HIS name.

I went on a date in vancouver and ordered a salad ( wasn't hungry) and later I got demanded for sex, on the basis I had ordered salad.

Another date dumped me off the the overpass ramp because "he just didn't feel a connection." Didn't even leave me near a fucking bus stop. Pull over the car and lob you out.

I've never been physically abused, but I was in some pretty fucked up relationships. I want to say it's partly because we seem to teach guys this weird "be a gentleman and you'll get sex" thing, and then there's all the "Nah, be the manly man and the ladies will fall at your feet".

And we teach girls to play into this too, or that we'll just question what they're wearing or what they said when they go to the police with their clothes in tatters.

That aside, I don't anticipate any real change in US gun culture. I'm at the point of "another shooting, whatever. Its the price you wanted to pay for freedom, to blow the heads off innocents."

We've had shootings here, but not even close to the crap the US has, even accounting for population. Why is that, exactly? ( I know the answer.)

Date: 2014-05-27 11:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elialshadowpine.livejournal.com
The "Schroedinger's Rapist" article helped knock some sense into Storme's head on that particular issue, but by then I'd also introduced them to some of the basics of privilege... and, well, when we got together in the first place over Boskone, they actually were afraid I'd feel obligated to have sex with them because they paid for meals* so it wasn't a completely out there concept for them. There's some really good "Nice Guy" articles that are perhaps a bit milder than the SR article -- if you want me to dig up, lemme know.

Friends of mine (and one of my gf's) have been really upset over the shooting and the shooter's manifesto. I'm at the point of just sighing and shrugging, because wtf can you do? I just don't have the energy.

* In Storme's case, it's not gender related. They have a "Thing" about paying for meals, since most of their young adult life they were too broke and basically only survived because of the kindness of friends. Ever since getting work that pays livable wage, they INSIST on paying. I've only seen them not argue twice; once was a bad financial period and the friend was someone we knew made money in the mid 6 figures, and the other is my mother... who has taken, I swear, extra levels in Stubborn and Cussedness.

Date: 2014-05-27 01:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nicosian.livejournal.com
I think he does understand privilege, but on this one he doesn't seem to understand entirely why women are going "this is what we get with rape culture/misogyny".

In part, because of some serious dramah!!! within the atheist skeptic community, but I pointed out a few instances of my dating life and I dunno. He'll get it or he won't. I think he just really wants to believe these are really isolated cases. He's never, in any form made any derogatory comment on a woman and it would never occur to him to do so, and so he kind of believes, I think, that other guys don't either.

He's quite aware of mansplaining and white-knighting and the like. but I think this is a whole eye opener to him on just how many men do seem to think women are merely things to USE.

I'm like you, another day, another shooting. After the newtown truther phenom, and the constant "if I had a gun I'd have saved the day NRA goofballs who never actually seem to be on hand, I guess they had a chikfila to gather at and pose with guns, I'm just "whatever. Its backpage news. I do like the idea of anonymizing the shooter's name.

(Oddly in amsterdam when there was a shooting by a lonely, disaffected kid, the culture was "what did we do to let this kid down so badly?" kind of discussion.

This guy was just broken beyond belief. If it wasn't the women, something else would have been the focus of his rage and disordered thinking. It seems like people tried to help but others in the chain just shrugged it off. I do believe the police should reconsider how they deal with "Yo, I think this kid's a potential bomb" reports, because as I gather, they just went "eh, looks ok to me."

Date: 2014-05-27 02:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elialshadowpine.livejournal.com
Yeah, the Schroedinger's Rapist article is pretty good for showing what rape culture is and the consequences thereof. There's also a really good article, I'm not sure if I have it bookmarked, about how women are socialized to NOT make a fuss if someone is harassing them, especially if it's in public. I'm not finding it atm, though. (... this is why I have started to make an effort to bookmark good essays. Sigh.)

Storme had more than a bit of a shock with that particular issue, too. Honestly, it got to the point over the last few years where I would read some news article or essay or another and growl at my computer, "I fucking hate men." And they'd ask why, and I'd link them, and... yeah. The sheer amount of articles, essays, blog posts, etc, about how women are treated, and how men view women as objects really got through to them. They made the mistake of assuming that most men would treat women like they do (/did when they identified as male). At this point, they're about as likely as me to growl, "I fucking hate men."

And honestly, it's something I really had to come to terms with, myself... oh, probably around 24/25, when I started reading social justice / feminism related stuff, and realized that a number of things I had just shrugged off were actually harassment/sexual assault. I just hadn't put two and two together. And for my experiences, I got off rather easier than some of my female friends -- in part because I barely leave the house between pain and my massive anxiety issues around meeting new people (IRL, I have no problem with this online; I blame my childhood and dad for that one).

I think a lot of us want to believe that it's not really that bad... except it is, and between the news over the last few years (between the violence against women and the Republican war on women) and the evidence with what MRA types are saying on Reddit and other places, it's becoming more obvious. It's scary.

I can believe it, with the Netherlands. My gf Omi's mother is from there and she spent part of her childhood there, and the things she's talked about culturally are so far apart from the US. ISTR that, while the attack did not specifically target women, the shooter in... I think it was Sweden? (okay, correction, Norway) a few years ago, the Norwegian attitude also was, "How did we fail this person?" (Not sure if you were on _p at the time, but there was an article shortly following this about the prison system in Sweden and Norway, and people flipped because their system focuses on rehabilitation and includes a lot of things Americans would consider luxuries. I don't think that particular shooter ended up in that prison but it was somewhat sad to see the xenophobia over different prison systems.)

The police are an absolute mess. I've only ever had decent experiences with the local tribal police, and we haven't had that kind of situation here. Just looking at the number of deaths that have happened in the past few years with police overreacting to a situation with a mentally ill child... I don't think they have a fucking clue how to handle this. And the attitude towards mental illness in American society does not help, either. Every time this shit happens, the media starts up with "let's blame people with mental illnesses and demonize them", and in fact people with mental illnesses are at greater risk in the first place. And, as someone with multiple mental health issues, I sure as fuck don't appreciate it.

Date: 2014-05-27 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nicosian.livejournal.com
The Netherlands shooting was the DAY after I got there. I didn't understand enough of the newscast in dutch, but what I did understand was that they really felt that this damaged kid had been let down by society, not in a "maybe he was entitled to sex" thing like the US kid, but "what services or actions could we take to prevent this again". It was an honest inward look.

Not that I blame society as a whole, but it was at least honest in that "we have a kid who felt so isolated and angry he shot up a mall, and we should have seen this and acted long before it got to that point."

It sounds like the US one there were a few attempts to intervene before he exploded but the system failed on that front.

I don't feel sympathy for this kid for his sense of entitlement, I feel like "well, everything just went wrong with a really broken human being". It could have been so much worse.

I find the MRA and misogynists on line far more horrible in their "if women had just given him pity sex they could have avoided this." as if now we're to put out for prevention of shootings? Its not on us. ( there's a PUA group that often works the mall here too, until security chases them out.)

That we seem to have a batch of guys who think this is how to get women speaks to me of failure to teach them respect, responsibility, compassion. On that, I think society's failed sometimes. I'm not a prude, but we need to be a little more direct and honest about sexuality and relationships, not these idealized disasters in media.

Lots of thinkings. Meh.

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